Ben Edwards (00:11.828)

Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us for today's webinar. Really excited about this one. It's all around removing the exec and leadership bottlenecks in professional services firms. And it's the first in a two-part series titled See the Firm That Doesn't Run on Its Founder. And today's webinar is going to be showing you how to stop the need for every single question, judgment, and decision having to roll uphill, causing those bottlenecks that

Slow growth, delivery, and success. By way of introduction, my name is Ben Edwards. I work with consultancies, architects, engineering firms either side of the Atlantic. I was in our Manchester UK office, now I'm in Orlando, Florida, and working with firms of all shapes and sizes on their own trajectory. Some housekeeping before we get started. This session is being recorded, so if you wanted to share with your colleagues, you absolutely can.

The marketing team will be getting that into your inboxes towards the middle end of this week. And it's an open access link, so feel free to share with other leaders, founders in the business, or other people who maybe are interested in solving this conundrum. We do have time during the session for QA. It's scheduled to be 45 minutes. So we'll spend a little bit of time on.

What is the problem? And then the majority of the time, 30 plus minutes, will actually be spent in the CMAP product, showing you how to solve those challenges, and then we've got 10-15 minutes on the QA. In this platform, Riverside, on the right hand side, you will see various different tabs. There's a QA, there's a chat, there's a public chat. If you just want your questions to come to me and not be publicly visible, use the QA.

Ben Edwards (02:05.428)

So the actual agenda. So first off, we're going to explore well, what are the most common leadership bottlenecks that we've identified across our client base, both sides of the Atlantic? and I'll title this A Life of Questions, which is if you are a founder or a leader in a boutique professional social, and that's maybe what it feels like. From Monday morning right through to Friday afternoon, your Slack teams, your phone, probably constantly getting pinged with all sorts of different questions, looking for opinions, looking for judgments, and that's what we're here to help solve.

What is the alternative? Well, how do we empower and give your team the data and the insights, plus the guardrails and the rigor, so they can make more informed decisions, free you up to spend more time on. That might be strategic work, it might be generating pipeline at the moment, it might be AI and how that integrates into your business. A little bit on who CMAP are for those who don't know. So looking specifically at

Work we do with boutique, ambitious, high-growth professional services firms across a couple of different segments. Then the demo split into four parts, and really, this is built to show you how we can help solve everything rolling uphill. We're going to start with pricing and proposals, which is where sales and BD will constantly be asking for how do we approve this discount? How do we price this? What's this commercial offering?

What do we do in this instance? How do we price this new service offering? Then we're going to be looking at the resourcing and people. So maybe it might be on an individual project basis. Who's working on it? Who's got the best skills, capabilities, and then more strategically around your people part of the business, like when should you hire? What you need to do from a pipeline perspective to make sure people aren't going to be sat on the bench. Crucial part is delivery and margin. So making sure that obviously we want

All of your clients to be exceptionally happy, but avoiding scope creep over delivery, making sure that the finances related to each engagement are on point. And if you need to make any decisions, that might be doing a little bit of work side of desk, it's a strategic decision rather than it happening silently without anyone's knowledge and costing tens, hundreds of thousands of pounds and dollars. And then the finance part. So those weekly, monthly meetings with the accounts.

Ben Edwards (04:25.106)

Bookkeepers, finance team, what are the problems, what are the challenges that constantly come back up to you? There might be things around do we start this engagement if somebody's fallen behind on cash and cash collection or their invoicing. How can we empower the team to make really educated decisions, connectivity of data so they can get the insights they need, again, without maybe taking up huge amounts of your time in nitty-gritty activities when there's more important growth and strategic objectives that need to be focused on.

So quick summary, so sort of compartmentalised all of what we're covering today into three buckets, three angles that you should be considering when sort of comparing current state, which might be a life full of questions and leadership both next to future state, how to empower, how to make sure that your team have the answers to help you the business thrive and grow, and then time for QA as well.

Ben Edwards (05:22.516)

So the leadership bottlenecks that we've identified is every question, every judgment, every decision tends to roll to the executive leadership in a boutique professional services firm. Sales and delivery have conflicts over the discounts that are on offer for SOWs, maybe the different pricing structures if every client is considered a snowflake versus more sort of productive service offerings, and then the actual timelines and the margins associated with it.

There will be discussions almost on a daily, weekly basis that's probably eating up minutes, hours of time. How do we solve that? For the project managers, the engagement leads, the port the people running portfolios of clients, when they're looking at their individual clients and the engagements, how do they make a decision on whether something should be raised as a change order? Does there need to be a new SOW? Do actually they suck up some of that.

Client requests and do the work side of desk for the sake of client relationship. A lot of that comes down to individual intuition, gut feel, personal decision making rather than anything that's embedded, process-driven, and certainly has data behind it to make a decision that is stored and is reflective of what you want the business to do. Your ops and resourcing team.

They might be working on a Monday morning, dealing with fires that are coming through over the weekend. People calling in sick, people handing in notice, needs to join as starting, clients finally responding to a proposal that they've avoided for weeks and saying they want to get started immediately. It's a difficult role, and no doubt there's questions from them as to who should be working on which engagement. Have we got enough people and capacity to

Deliver the projected pipeline and the engagements that are coming down the track, as well as the existing clients who may be asking for more and more. How can we have more intelligence, more data around that decision making and speed it up for them too, which frees them time and frees you time to focus on more strategic calls around your people? And then the finite side of things. So how do we make a decision on do we start that next engagement if a client has fallen behind on payment?

Ben Edwards (07:43.45)

what do we do when in cash flow has reduced? How do we get foresight of that so that we can accurately plan for investments in the business? Plus, on top of that, there's always going to be those questions about where's your pipeline up to? What's the strategy of the business and how AI adoption is going in the firm? So there's a lot. In fact, personally, I feel like there's more than ever for a Boutique professional services firm and the leaders and the people within that.

do, to talk about, to focus on in these sort of interesting market dynamics.

So what's the alternative? Again, every question, every judgment, every decision. But instead of it flowing through the leadership team, the founders, how do we get an empowered workforce who can make those decisions themselves? So taking those four different departments again, sales and delivery, if they've got accurate historical data of every client, every engagement, there's some rigour around what are the service offerings that you're proposing to your clients.

What's the margin that you have been able to prove time and time again gets delivered from engagement to engagement? So they can make accurate decisions on how they should price that piece of work up without leaving money on the table before the contract's even signed. What processes and rigor do project managers now have so they know what to do if a client is asking for extra work? When does an SRW change order get raised? How do we stop that scape creep?

And some of that well intentioned over delivery, which is a one of the silent margin killers worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and pounds per year for a any sort of boutique professional service fan.

Ben Edwards (09:32.742)

Ops and resourcing, they can make decisions without having to go up the chain based on the experience of the people, the availability of people, the margin that's associated with it. So many different ways they can make decisions on how to best staff and resource those engagements, making sure people get really engaging work, varied experiences, and the clients get fantastic people working on their next engagement. And in the finance team, we've got joined up insight across everything from WIP and Billing.

So not having to just scramble around on Teams or Slack chasing PMs or engagement leads for updates on when invoices should go out the door, which inevitably leads to cash collection being slower, getting insight on who's slow paying or who's late paying without having to route through a general ledger system and spreadsheets and a different project management tool, all of which will help improve your revenue position. What this enables the firms we work with and the founders and the leaders.

in those firms to do is the day to day

Is back on the team because they can make really intelligent decisions because all of the data is connected. Frees them up to spend more time on the things they love. It's what they built the business for in the first place. I know plenty of founders and leaders who love being out in the marketplace. They can then spend more time on driving pipeline, building relationships, winning that work. A lot of people I know are more of the divisionary, and that's why they've got strong operators in the business to do the day-to-day.

But they've got a really well-defined focus on where the business is going. So they can spend more time actually on that. And over the past 24 months, with AI coming to the fore, lots of businesses are looking at: is this an opportunity? Is this a threat? What can we do to help not just individual productivity gains, which is evidently something that professional services firms have already harnessed, but what can we do about

Ben Edwards (11:35.196)

Leveraging AI internally within the business to help improve the enterprise value, remove some of the founder dependency, which if you're looking for investment, if you're looking for growth, that's one of the things that enables you to become truly scalable.

What is our experience in this? Well, as an operations platform, we're very well connected in that bid to build process. We have our own CRM, but you can imagine on the front end, if we're getting insights from the HubSpot and the Salesforces and the API connectors into CMap of this world, that's going to feed some of the pipeline insights. We've got connectivity in with general ledges like QuickBooks, like Xero, like Sage, which gives us the financial insights.

And by connecting everything in that quote to cash process, you have a single source of truth with CMAP anchored in the middle as your operations intelligent platform. Over 700 boutiques now leverage our platform across their businesses, across a really wide range of professional services markets, classic consulting firms who are doing project based work, a number of whom are moving from T and to Fixed Beard, and there's this ever increasing debate.

About outcome-based pricing. You've got architects and engineering firms who really want to focus on their craft, building and designing fantastic physical infrastructure projects right across the world and removing some of the headaches that come with running the those businesses. You've got agencies, particularly in the life sciences space, and then tech and IT firms who are at the cutting edge and the forefront of digital transformation and AI.

very much could try and build their own set of tooling to solve some of these problems, yet they still rely on CMAP as that real heart of the business and the single source of truth.

Ben Edwards (13:32.53)

Now going to move more into the demo side and tackle those four key areas that I touched on to remove the bottlenecks from. I'm just going to quickly switch from slide deck to live demo. So if you bear with me a second.

Ben Edwards (14:02.772)

Hopefully, now you have entered the wonderful world of CMAP. And in front of you, you have a fictitious professional services firm who is leveraging our platform and has gone through the process of removing those founder and leadership bottlenecks. They've connected in their finance system, they've connected in their sales and pipeline. And now CMAP is the beating heart of their operations. So I want everybody to sort of imagine that.

You have moved off the disparate set of tools and spreadsheets that might have permeated across your business. Everybody is entering their time in this solution. We've got all of your 1099s, your full-time employees, your W-2s as well. They're all in here. So you can imagine the wealth of insight and data you can get by connecting all of that information in one place. Where people start their day is a

Persona-based dashboard. The first founder bottleneck, the first leadership bottleneck, I want you all to imagine is a sales opportunity. Your team have discovered that there's a new opportunity with a hot account. And instead of rifling through all of your old proposals, all of your data sources to figure out where you're up to, should you be able to approve a discount or not?

What's the conversation with delivery about timelines and margins? You're actually inside of CMAP and be able to make that judgment call. So we're getting pipeline data from either our CRM, HubSpot, Salesforce, other CRMs, and we're getting a quick insight into where we're up to so far. So how are we performing as an org is probably the first bit of context I want before making an individual decision on an individual project basis. So I'm getting a sense of what pipeline we've got.

What's our revenue performance to date? How individuals are performing against their target? All of that is done from this dashboard. We'll then take the individual opportunity that's being discussed with the person who's brought the opportunity to the table. It's a fictitious cult consulting project for a piece of AI pricing strategy work.

Ben Edwards (16:26.482)

What you can do inside of CMAC is build out your SOWs and your proposals here with rigor and guardrails intact. We've got different rate cards stored, and obviously, if you need some sort of security settings around who gets access to things like your cost rates and your charge rates and the margins, you absolutely can. In this organisation it's fairly open and transparent, but we have an approval process to go through.

So we've got in front of you here a multi-stage engagement, which starts with an initial phase. We've got some tasks and deliverables that need to be completed by four different job roles. And then we've got the number of hours that is estimated to deliver this service offering. Some firms prefer to build this out in days, you've got that flexibility. So you've got a standardized service offering which is here. We've also got templates available for

Architect firms. If you yourself have different templatised service offerings, you can build build those in CMAP. Equally, if every project is a snowflake and you have to build a la carte, then you can do that very simply here too. So it's a multi phase engagement. You've got the ability to add any additionals, which might be traveling expenses, and you might be looking to make an adjustment. That could be a value upsell or it could be a discount. And all of that is stored within this fee estimator template.

What this means is that the rigour and the process that you want to embed around how to price out a piece of work in the first instance, that maybe is already that's typically stored in a leader's head, is actually very well codified. Using AI and the fee intelligence, you're also giving your team additional ability to use the wealth of insights that would not have been uncovered if these were.

you know, siloed documents or information stored in different systems.

Ben Edwards (18:32.478)

This is going to enable your team to make the best decisions possible based on historical data that you have stored in the solution. So I can see here we've actually done a previous project for this client, and it was nearly 9% lower margin than planned, only 32% margin. We've also got 12 other projects that we're running with this same client with a wide range of margins from 8% to 85%. So a better, a better

Average margin, but still a little bit lower than planned. We've also got a similar type of project that we've quoted for this client before, and again, that's at a lower margin. We might want to analyse this further. Is it down to the particular type of engagement? Is this down to the particular sector? And actually, using the AI tooling, the people in your business.

You get the insights at their fingertips to make much better decisions around how they price this piece of work out without have it having to come to you in the first place.

They've also got the ability to censor check that margin before they send off the proposal and guardrails around this to make sure that.

If there's minimum thresholds to hit, or you need approval processes, you can embed those too. Now let's fast forward a little bit and imagine that this project has been one. Texas Technology signed off the engagement. And instead of the next set of questions going up the chain, which might be around who's going to be working on this project, how long are they working on it, who's the best fit, ops resourcing.

Ben Edwards (20:15.976)

People in the delivery team can use the resource schedule to do that. So we automatically take what was built in the SAW and port it across the resource schedule. In this instance, we can see that somebody has already come in and over the next few weeks and months forecasted out who is going to be looking to work on this engagement. But let's say you're in a meeting and somebody calls in sick, somebody leaves the business, there's a change.

Maybe the client says, we need a more experienced team to work on this project. Instead of having to again root through spreadsheets, set up a call to discuss internally, your people can use the AI tool to make a recommendation based on a number of different criteria. Well, let's imagine this instance the client's been a little unhappy with how this project has started, and the real solution to that problem is to.

Put some of most experienced people on the team. Rather than try and pick the team based on availability, skills, or margin, let's use the experience. And what we can do is we can then make some recommendations. Who is the current team? Who's the recommendation? Is this a role match? Have they got the capacity? Have they got the skills? And what's the relevant experience? And then a scoring mechanism associated with that. Speeds up the whole process, removes the need for answers from the chain of command.

moves the business forwards, hopefully delivers a better client experience.

Ben Edwards (21:49.008)

One opportunity this enables you to do if you're freeing up time for answering those types of questions is think a little bit more strategically about people and resourcing. So we found that the ops leaders, the people leaders who are leveraging CMAP, then spend more time looking at things like scenario planning. So they're making more, they're investing more time in thinking about who should they be hiring, when they should be hiring, what gaps are there in the pipeline, when are people going to be hitting the bench.

And because we've got that pipeline data, we've got that live project data and people's availability and skills, we can give you some scenario planning tools, one of which related to people is your staffing prediction report. So what you've got in front of you is a 12 month forward forecast with your capacity in dotted blue, you've got your live engagements, your live demand in the dark green, and then your pipeline, which you can flex based on different stages, probability in the light green.

And beneath that, colour-coded crunch points, where is there going to be problems in the amount of capacity versus demand that you've got? So we can see over the next couple of months, if we're winning all of these pipeline projects and building on top of the live engagements we've got, we're going to run out of capacity in five to six of these roles. But actually, a really senior, really expensive role is going to be left on the bench. Well, what does that mean to the business? Does that mean they're going to have to perform lower value tasks? Will that eat into your margin?

Does that mean that some of these people are going to be more stressed and overworked? Do you have to tap into your 1099 jury associates? What does this mean in terms of this cliff edging pipeline? Have we got enough work starting in 2027 to counter the amount of people and resource that you've got? Well, in this instance, no. So what does that mean? Who should you be what type of engagement should you be looking at winning? Which type of people are going to be most exposed? so that's the difference that

CMAP can make in in terms of taking away all of the data day and freeing you up to make more strategic talks. The second scenario I wanted to run through was for a live live project. So let's fast forward a week now and imagine you're actually in a different setting. you're sitting in a client review meeting. maybe one of the engagement leads is taking you through their portfolio of of projects and

Ben Edwards (24:17.072)

One of your engagements like to took your eye. On their dashboard, it was flagging as a as a red. And there was some problems with this project. So instead of having to take that offline because previously it'd take hours for the people running the engagement to get the people in the room, get all the data together for a debrief, you can see the performance of that engagement in real time. So similar to that last project I priced, it's a multi-stage engagement. In this instance, there's a concept phase, an implementation phase, and a handover.

Phase. The data you're seeing before you is comparing what you priced out in that fee estimator in the blue bar, what percentage of work has been complete. So almost like a qualitative assessment of is the concept phase finished. In this instance, yellow is against blue, so yes it is, but in the implementation phase we can see actually we're only 80% done and the handover phase 30%.

So the reason why this project was probably flagging red in that portfolio review is the actuals. The amount of time that has been spent on that first phase went way above what was budgeted. And the same is looking to be true for the second phase too. In fact, even if we managed to complete all of the work now, for no additional time, we would still have eaten into the initial budget. There's a little bit of good grace on the handover phase where

It's a little bit more balanced, and we're slightly behind. So maybe there's something that we can do and make it up in that final engagement. But when the project manager tells you that actually this client is asking for additional work to be done, they're asking for additional people and resource to be put onto the project without a new SAW being raised, in real time, you can make that call. The ops person can come in and they can project how much future resource is required.

To deliver that project. You can then look at the story so far on the right hand side and get a sense of how far behind your target has this margin fallen. And then you can make the decision and communicate back to the client as to whether that was acceptable or actually likely. In this instance, you would need to raise a change order, raise an SAW, and you'd want to be tracking that rather than just absorbing it because you're already falling behind.

Ben Edwards (26:35.56)

What we find, in fact, is in a lot of cases, this type of analysis is actually done once a project's complete rather than in real time anyway. And it's way too late to course correct then. This genuinely is, I would say, the rubber hits the road in terms of from a financial performance perspective in a boutique professional system. This is the s this is where you can see and spot the silent margin killers, the over delivery, the scope creep, and you can make a call. And lots of times you might

actually decide it was because the pri the the work wasn't scoped out properly in the first place or you want to soak it up for the betterment of the relationship, but at least you're making that decision with all the intelligence and the data in mind, rather than it happening after the effect and being able to make no change. Equally, you know, best practice would be you actually course correct on it and get those margins back up to healthier levels, which then obviously gives you more cash and finances to reinvest in the business

Going forwards. So this removes the client bottlenecks and the project tracking bottlenecks that often surface up to leadership, but gives your people the guardrails alongside the opportunity to educate themselves on things like project performance, client performance, which will improve their ability to make better decisions in the future, as well on a case by case basis.

Fine the final sort of area where we're finding leadership bottlenecks is in the finance part of their firm. So I'm in a different client account, different project here, and a different meeting. So fast forward again, and this time you're with your your finance team, maybe in monthly finance meeting. And your accountant, your bookkeeper has said, We're really struggling with your favorite client.

They've fallen behind on invoicing. No, they've been with us for a long time. But what what do we do? And the project manager who's running this account is lost on where the payments are up to and really indecisive on whether to start that extension work that's being proposed or hold fire and push back on the client. Because CMAP is connected in with your general ledger system and everything from bid to bill is done in one place, you can imagine this is where we're going to be.

Ben Edwards (29:00.116)

Creating the invoicing. It gives the project managers the engagement leads, the ownership to schedule out and create and approve the invoices before finance even need to, which frees up their time and gives more responsibility to the people in the business who typically would come to finance or come to you with those problems and challenges. Really well embedded guardrails and rigor around this.

And again, another opportunity for CMS AI to come to fore. So we've got this billing intelligence on the right hand side, which is giving us some insights to make a call based on that scenario presented. So they're having problems with this particular client because even though they've got a really solid track record of of paying their invoices through twenty twenty five, they're paying them much later than the rest of your client base. A hundred and fifteen days late, in fact.

There's also an internal problem here. In Christmas, we actually missed one of the invoices that was due to go out. So, not a client problem. This is an internal challenge. So it's meaning you've potentially missed out on 5k. And then we've also got three invoices overdue to be raised. And this is where you know lots of boutiques we work with, because the systems aren't connected, and finance are often tempted to chase.

Project managers to get updates on whether that invoice is good to go out or not. There's that disconnect, that miscommunication, which means that actually getting the bills out the door and then the cash back into the business can be slowed down. So there's a number of things and challenges that can be overcome, and you can make a decision in real time as an individual in the business, in the finance team or the PN team, without having to go to the leadership and clog them up with something that you've got the data in front of you.

You've got the guardrails in place, you know what to do, so you can go ahead and make that decision.

Ben Edwards (31:01.274)

again I'm gonna quickly stop sharing from the demo environment and go back to the slides to then provide the sort of final summary piece before we move to QA. So if you bear with me one second, start my sharing again.

Ben Edwards (31:27.892)

I'm going come back to the SharePoint. And I guess at this point, also conscious of time, invite you to start asking questions through the chat if you've got those. But this is this is the summarization of what we've seen today. Like we've found leaders and founders have got hours, days, weeks worth of lost time on a month process going through manual processes themselves.

Able to fire fire and chase people up. So there's the actual time that could be that is wasted there. Plus, there's the opportunity cost of being able to work on bigger strategic initiatives, a number of which I mentioned earlier. It could be BD, it could be AI, it could be the direction of the business. There's the monetary value of this. There's the underpriced work, there's the client-side scope creep, which demonstrably, and if you're interested, we've got

data comparing high performers versus the rest of the market. That difference is substantial. Even in a small boutique of 10 to 20 staff, that's hundreds of thousands of dollars or pounds. In larger firms, that can be upwards of millions of pounds and dollars. We've written articles on it, the evil twins of underpricing work and s and over delivery. It's it's pervasive still in even in this age of technology and AI where project and client margin

can be easily tracked as we've seen today. There's the missed sales opportunities and the revenue and cash leakage, which puts the business on under more pressure. And then the final bucket is that can't scale, won't scale. Like founder brilliance and founder dependency happens for a reason. Like businesses get beyond solo consultancies to being an actual firm because founders leaders can drag that business up and make it a success.

But there reaches tipping points when it can't scale beyond them. It you need to institutionalize some of that knowledge. The IP and the IC that lives in people's heads, the unwritten decision making needs to be documented so others can follow and free again, those people that have built the firm up to the point to then go again. and again, if you're looking at things like being investable, generating additional growth, additional profit, generating getting to an exit.

Ben Edwards (33:53.262)

then that dependency and standardisation actually increases enterprise value.

I'm gonna pause again and this is the final thought, I guess, like to know whether this is a genuine problem or not is what would happen if the founder, the leaders in the business stepped away for two weeks, if you returned, would all hell have broken loose and the business be on fire and people stressed out? Would the people themselves in the business get the answers they need, know the processes to follow, or would that not be the case?

So I'm gonna move to the QA part of the session now.

So one of the questions that has come in has been this obviously is contingent a lot on high quality data. it's more of a statement than a question. But you you're absolutely right. And you know, s somebody once said that you can't buy a piece of software and magically improve your results and the business gets transformed. And that's true, but the adoption of

platforms is absolutely critical in this. And if you get your people moving from their data silos and connecting all of the data in one place, then you will have a transformational effect and you will get more time back. People will have more processes and rigour to follow.

Ben Edwards (35:32.42)

Somebody's asking about how they can get their own demo of the solution. So if you bear with me a sec.

I will post a link into the chat so that you can

Booking for your own

Specific demo of the solution. If you go to this URL here, then you are able to speak to one of the team who will learn a little bit more about your specific needs and requirements and will set up a session so that

Ben Edwards (36:13.692)

is reflective of the way that you price your work, the way that you run your engagements, and maybe some of the different systems that you want integrating. So yeah, recommend using the Booker Demo page to get something more specific to yourself.

Ben Edwards (36:33.246)

Okay, any other questions from people? If not, I can post a cut get a couple of links posted in the chat so that you can join us for future sessions.

So if you look in the chat now, we have got three sessions that you can join us for going forwards. So the first of which is a session running running with Consulting Magazine, sort of a North American media brand covering the consulting industry. And it's all about getting past the eight-figure walls. So that $10,000, 10,000 pound sterling mark where lots of firms will get to and then really

struggle to get past and we're speaking with the editor and a couple of boutique consulting leaders founders who are on their journey to that and one of whom has actually broken past that. So that'll be an interesting session hearing from them getting insights as to how they how they thought about and how how they achieved some of those goals and ambitions. You've got the insights hub which is about

Moving beyond the founder, which is actually the inspiration for these two webinars that's got a lot more content, a lot more insights, blog posts, case studies, links to some of the benchmarking reports, helping businesses who are looking to move beyond the founder. So that's the second link. And then the third link is actually the part two of this series. So this is going to be more for the people in the business, the project managers, the operations people, the sales BD people.

What are some of the dashboards, what are some of the tools that they can use so that they can take the work, take the responsibility themselves and again remove the the founder leadership bottlenecks that exist in boutiques.

Ben Edwards (38:30.184)

By the looks of it, I think those were the questions and I appreciate your time and your engagement today and look forward to speaking to you soon. So for now, I'll say thank you and goodbye.

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